Have “choir” and “deer” ever rhymed?











up vote
6
down vote

favorite












It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.




The rising of the sun



And the running of the deer,



The playing of the merry organ,



Sweet singing in the choir.




Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.



Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?










share|improve this question


















  • 1




    It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
    – Michael Harvey
    1 hour ago










  • @MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago










  • @Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
    – Zan700
    1 min ago















up vote
6
down vote

favorite












It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.




The rising of the sun



And the running of the deer,



The playing of the merry organ,



Sweet singing in the choir.




Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.



Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?










share|improve this question


















  • 1




    It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
    – Michael Harvey
    1 hour ago










  • @MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago










  • @Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
    – Zan700
    1 min ago













up vote
6
down vote

favorite









up vote
6
down vote

favorite











It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.




The rising of the sun



And the running of the deer,



The playing of the merry organ,



Sweet singing in the choir.




Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.



Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?










share|improve this question













It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.




The rising of the sun



And the running of the deer,



The playing of the merry organ,



Sweet singing in the choir.




Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.



Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?







meaning-in-context old-english rhymes






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 hours ago









Pam

3,3271425




3,3271425








  • 1




    It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
    – Michael Harvey
    1 hour ago










  • @MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago










  • @Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
    – Zan700
    1 min ago














  • 1




    It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
    – Michael Harvey
    1 hour ago










  • @MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
    – Kristina Lopez
    1 hour ago










  • @Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
    – Zan700
    1 min ago








1




1




It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago




It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago




1




1




It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago




It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago












@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago




@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago












@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago




@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago










2 Answers
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4
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Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:




choir (n.)



c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.




Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.



Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:




The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:




This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.





As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:




The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.




I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.






share|improve this answer






























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:



    Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.



    Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme



    Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)



    EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.






    share|improve this answer





















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      2 Answers
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      Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:




      choir (n.)



      c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.




      Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.



      Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:




      The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:




      This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.





      As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:




      The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.




      I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.






      share|improve this answer



























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:




        choir (n.)



        c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.




        Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.



        Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:




        The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:




        This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.





        As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:




        The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.




        I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.






        share|improve this answer

























          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:




          choir (n.)



          c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.




          Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.



          Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:




          The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:




          This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.





          As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:




          The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.




          I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.






          share|improve this answer














          Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:




          choir (n.)



          c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.




          Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.



          Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:




          The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:




          This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.





          As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:




          The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.




          I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 58 mins ago

























          answered 1 hour ago









          Sven Yargs

          110k18234492




          110k18234492
























              up vote
              0
              down vote













              It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:



              Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.



              Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme



              Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)



              EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.






              share|improve this answer

























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:



                Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.



                Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme



                Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)



                EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.






                share|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:



                  Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.



                  Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme



                  Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)



                  EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.






                  share|improve this answer












                  It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:



                  Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.



                  Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme



                  Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)



                  EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 48 mins ago









                  Rob_Ster

                  5,02411025




                  5,02411025






























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