Have “choir” and “deer” ever rhymed?
up vote
6
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It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.
Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?
meaning-in-context old-english rhymes
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.
Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?
meaning-in-context old-english rhymes
1
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.
Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?
meaning-in-context old-english rhymes
It’s that time of year when the dodgy rhymes of Christmas carols abound, but I find the chorus of "The Holly and the Ivy" particularly intriguing.
The rising of the sun
And the running of the deer,
The playing of the merry organ,
Sweet singing in the choir.
Wikipedia provides all the lyrics. First and third lines of each verse rhyme in sound in some cases and spelling in others. So what am I missing in the chorus? "The running of the deer" seems a fairly ad hoc choice, and could, presumably, be substituted with a better rhyme. "Choir" has many rhyming options.
Is there a special symbolic meaning behind the running deer? Is there any evidence for a rhyme in the past? Or is there another animal that rhymes with "choir" that I can happily substitute?
meaning-in-context old-english rhymes
meaning-in-context old-english rhymes
asked 2 hours ago
Pam
3,3271425
3,3271425
1
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago
add a comment |
1
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago
1
1
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
1
1
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
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Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:
choir (n.)
c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.
Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.
Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:
The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:
This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.
As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:
The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.
I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:
Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.
Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme
Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)
EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:
choir (n.)
c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.
Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.
Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:
The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:
This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.
As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:
The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.
I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:
choir (n.)
c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.
Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.
Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:
The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:
This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.
As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:
The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.
I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:
choir (n.)
c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.
Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.
Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:
The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:
This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.
As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:
The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.
I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.
Here is the entry for choir from our friends at Etymology Online:
choir (n.)
c. 1300, queor "part of the church where the choir sings," from Old French cuer, quer "(architectural) choir of a church; chorus of singers" (13c., Modern French choeur), from Latin chorus "choir" (see chorus). Meaning "band of singers" in English is from c. 1400, quyre. Re-spelled mid-17c. in an attempt to match classical forms, but the pronunciation has not changed.
Etymonline explicitly states that the shift in spelling from quyre to choir in the middle 1600s did not reflect a change in pronunciation, but it seems fair to ask whether there might not have been a shift in pronunciation between queor in 1300 and quyre in 1400, or a shift in pronunciation of quyre itself (with no change in spelling) between 1400 and the mid-1600s.
Nevertheless, these possibilities are moot if the song is not significantly more than 300 years old. According to the Wikipedia article on "The Holly and the Ivy," there is no firm evidence to push the date of the lyrics back before about 1711:
The words of the carol were included in Sylvester's 1861 collection A Garland of Christmas Carols where it is claimed to originate from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since" [i.e. around 1711]: Husk's 1864 Songs of the Nativity also includes the carol, stating:
This carol appears to have nearly escaped the notice of collectors, as it has been reprinted by one alone, who states his copy to have been taken from "an old broadside, printed a century and a half since," i.e. about 1710. It is still retained on the broadsides printed at Birmingham.
As for the reference to "the running of the deer," a webpage dedicated to "Yule Songs" at the Proto-Indo-European Religion website has this comment:
The "running of the deer" in this song refers to the custom of going hunting in the forest on the day after the long night of the Winter Solstice. By Victorian times this had turned into a tradition of blasting away with a shotgun at as many birds as possible, including song birds, which were brought home and baked in meat pies. This became unacceptable and the tradition is now to participate in a Christmas Bird Count of which there are many organized versions.
I'm not sure what to make of the claimed lineage of Christmas bird counts, but the tradition of winter solstice hunting, if true, would explain why the lyricist associated "the running of the deer" with Christmas.
edited 58 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Sven Yargs
110k18234492
110k18234492
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It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:
Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.
Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme
Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)
EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:
Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.
Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme
Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)
EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:
Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.
Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme
Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)
EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.
It's what's called a half-rhyme. Quoth Wikipedia:
Half rhyme or imperfect rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme, lazy rhyme, or slant rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, suspended rhyme, or sprung rhyme.
Wikipedia: Perfect and Imperfect Rhyme
Such rhymes often turn on the last consonant sound. The poems of Emily Dickinson contain numerous examples. (See "A Narrow Fellow in the grass," noting that the second and fourth lines in each stanza are half-rhymes.)
EL&U has a number of similar answers, albeit to differently framed questions.
answered 48 mins ago
Rob_Ster
5,02411025
5,02411025
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
It just doesn't rhyme. There is a verse of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman" where they match up "wind", as in the meteorological phenomenon and "mind": "3. The shepherds at those tidings/Rejoiced much in mind,/And left their flocks a-feeding/In tempest, storm and wind," Go figure...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
1
It doesn't scan, either. It's a folk song, not a poem.
– Michael Harvey
1 hour ago
@MichaelHarvey - actually it's a Christmas carol. Not sure why you're mentioning folk song or poem...
– Kristina Lopez
1 hour ago
@Pam It seems to me that the second and fourth lines are near rhymes in the verse. If the chorus mirrors that, then deer and choir would also be near rhymes, which means that choir would be pronounced the way that Sven notes below. The case for it being more than 300 years old would be that the chorus in other carols of that vintage does mirror the verse.
– Zan700
1 min ago