If Gravity is a pseudoforce in General Relativity, then why is a graviton necessary?












2














As far as i’m aware, gravity in General Relativity arises from the curvature of spacetime, and is equivalent to an accelerated reference frame. Objects accelerating in a gravitational field are in fact inertial and are moving through geodesics in spacetime. So it could be said then that it is not really a force, but a pseudoforce much like the coriolis effect. If so, why is it necessary to quantise gravity with a gauge boson, the graviton? And why is it necessary to unify it with the other forces?










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  • I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago
















2














As far as i’m aware, gravity in General Relativity arises from the curvature of spacetime, and is equivalent to an accelerated reference frame. Objects accelerating in a gravitational field are in fact inertial and are moving through geodesics in spacetime. So it could be said then that it is not really a force, but a pseudoforce much like the coriolis effect. If so, why is it necessary to quantise gravity with a gauge boson, the graviton? And why is it necessary to unify it with the other forces?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago














2












2








2


1





As far as i’m aware, gravity in General Relativity arises from the curvature of spacetime, and is equivalent to an accelerated reference frame. Objects accelerating in a gravitational field are in fact inertial and are moving through geodesics in spacetime. So it could be said then that it is not really a force, but a pseudoforce much like the coriolis effect. If so, why is it necessary to quantise gravity with a gauge boson, the graviton? And why is it necessary to unify it with the other forces?










share|cite|improve this question













As far as i’m aware, gravity in General Relativity arises from the curvature of spacetime, and is equivalent to an accelerated reference frame. Objects accelerating in a gravitational field are in fact inertial and are moving through geodesics in spacetime. So it could be said then that it is not really a force, but a pseudoforce much like the coriolis effect. If so, why is it necessary to quantise gravity with a gauge boson, the graviton? And why is it necessary to unify it with the other forces?







quantum-field-theory general-relativity






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asked 4 hours ago









Thatpotatoisaspy

15826




15826












  • I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago


















  • I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago
















I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
– InertialObserver
3 hours ago




I like this question. I have seen many sparse answers, but haven't seen it addressed head-on.
– InertialObserver
3 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

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2














While it's common to describe gravity as a fictitious force we should be cautious about the use of the adjective fictitious as this is a technical term meaning the gravitational force is not fundamental but is the result of an underlying property. The force itself it most certainly not fictitious as anyone who has been sat on by an elephant can attest.



There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields, so gravity is not unique in this respect. For more on this see Can all fundamental forces be fictitious forces?



Anyhow, the object responsible for the gravitational force is a tensor field called the metric, and when we quantise gravity we are quantising the metric. The graviton then emerges as the excitation of the quantum field that describes the metric. As with other quantum fields we can have real gravitons that are the building blocks of gravitational waves and virtual gravitons used in scattering calculations.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago










  • @InertialObserver yes
    – John Rennie
    3 hours ago










  • But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago












  • No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
    – John Rennie
    3 hours ago










  • Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
    – InertialObserver
    3 hours ago



















0














Gravity is not equivalent to an accelerated frame. It's locally equivalent to an accelerated frame. That means that a point-like observed will never be able to tell whether he/she is in a gravitational field or in an accelerating spaceship. But an observer that has some characteristic size will experience tidal forces. Tidal forces are a result of a non zero curvature of space. On the other hand going to an accelerated frame does not curve spacetime because it's just a change of variables.



The mathematical statement is that you can always find a change of coordinates which, at a given point, sets to zero the first derivatives of the metric. Namely you can make the Christoffel symbols $Gamma^mu_{nurho}$ vanish at a given point. On the other hand the second derivatives of the metric, which encode the curvature, cannot be set to zero.



There is a nice exercise that demonstrates the difference between accelerating frames and curved spacetime. Suppose you have two particles following two parallel geodesics. In curved spacetime the geodesics will not stay parallel. This is discussed in the book Schutz - A first course in general relativity at the end of Section 6.5. I'll summarize the punch line but I encourage you to check the derivation there.



Call $vec{xi}$ the vector that connects two geodesics $vec{V}$ and $vec{V}'$ initially parallel. In the book the following equation is proven
$$
nabla_Vnabla_V xi^alpha = R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}V^mu V^nu xi^beta,.
$$

where $nabla_V = V^mu nabla_mu$, $nabla$ being the covariant derivative and $R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}$ is the Riemann tensor, which measures the curvature. The equation above states that the variation of $vec{xi}$ along the geodesic is not zero but proportional to the curvature, thus showing that geodesics deviate from being parallel in curved space. This is a frame-independent effect and cannot be realized by going to an accelerated frame.



An observer with a characteristic size of the order of $1/sqrt{R^mu_{phantom{a}nurhobeta}}$ would be able to notice this effect.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    0














    There is no difference between waves and particles. They are identical broad concepts including any possible configuration of matter or energy.



    So since gravity must be transmitted as something, whatever means through which it transmits can be called a wave or particle. Because all forces must unify, forces transmitted through quanta e.g. emag require that all other forces also be quantized.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















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      3 Answers
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      3 Answers
      3






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      active

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      active

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      2














      While it's common to describe gravity as a fictitious force we should be cautious about the use of the adjective fictitious as this is a technical term meaning the gravitational force is not fundamental but is the result of an underlying property. The force itself it most certainly not fictitious as anyone who has been sat on by an elephant can attest.



      There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields, so gravity is not unique in this respect. For more on this see Can all fundamental forces be fictitious forces?



      Anyhow, the object responsible for the gravitational force is a tensor field called the metric, and when we quantise gravity we are quantising the metric. The graviton then emerges as the excitation of the quantum field that describes the metric. As with other quantum fields we can have real gravitons that are the building blocks of gravitational waves and virtual gravitons used in scattering calculations.






      share|cite|improve this answer





















      • I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago










      • @InertialObserver yes
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago












      • No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago
















      2














      While it's common to describe gravity as a fictitious force we should be cautious about the use of the adjective fictitious as this is a technical term meaning the gravitational force is not fundamental but is the result of an underlying property. The force itself it most certainly not fictitious as anyone who has been sat on by an elephant can attest.



      There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields, so gravity is not unique in this respect. For more on this see Can all fundamental forces be fictitious forces?



      Anyhow, the object responsible for the gravitational force is a tensor field called the metric, and when we quantise gravity we are quantising the metric. The graviton then emerges as the excitation of the quantum field that describes the metric. As with other quantum fields we can have real gravitons that are the building blocks of gravitational waves and virtual gravitons used in scattering calculations.






      share|cite|improve this answer





















      • I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago










      • @InertialObserver yes
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago












      • No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago














      2












      2








      2






      While it's common to describe gravity as a fictitious force we should be cautious about the use of the adjective fictitious as this is a technical term meaning the gravitational force is not fundamental but is the result of an underlying property. The force itself it most certainly not fictitious as anyone who has been sat on by an elephant can attest.



      There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields, so gravity is not unique in this respect. For more on this see Can all fundamental forces be fictitious forces?



      Anyhow, the object responsible for the gravitational force is a tensor field called the metric, and when we quantise gravity we are quantising the metric. The graviton then emerges as the excitation of the quantum field that describes the metric. As with other quantum fields we can have real gravitons that are the building blocks of gravitational waves and virtual gravitons used in scattering calculations.






      share|cite|improve this answer












      While it's common to describe gravity as a fictitious force we should be cautious about the use of the adjective fictitious as this is a technical term meaning the gravitational force is not fundamental but is the result of an underlying property. The force itself it most certainly not fictitious as anyone who has been sat on by an elephant can attest.



      There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields, so gravity is not unique in this respect. For more on this see Can all fundamental forces be fictitious forces?



      Anyhow, the object responsible for the gravitational force is a tensor field called the metric, and when we quantise gravity we are quantising the metric. The graviton then emerges as the excitation of the quantum field that describes the metric. As with other quantum fields we can have real gravitons that are the building blocks of gravitational waves and virtual gravitons used in scattering calculations.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 3 hours ago









      John Rennie

      270k42528779




      270k42528779












      • I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago










      • @InertialObserver yes
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago












      • No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago


















      • I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago










      • @InertialObserver yes
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago












      • No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
        – John Rennie
        3 hours ago










      • Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
        – InertialObserver
        3 hours ago
















      I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago




      I really like this answer, and the link is very good too. But when you say "There is a sense in which all forces are fictitious since they are all the emergent long range behaviour of quantum fields", are asserting that this is equivalent to your earlier statement that "the force is the result of an underlying property"?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago












      @InertialObserver yes
      – John Rennie
      3 hours ago




      @InertialObserver yes
      – John Rennie
      3 hours ago












      But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago






      But isn't OP asserting the possibility that gravity is different in this sense? That the description of spacetime is more fundamental than the Yang-Mills gauge theories that we define on that spacetime, and so perhaps shouldn't be subject to the same intuition that it should be "quantized"?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago














      No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
      – John Rennie
      3 hours ago




      No I don't think quantising the metric is any more fundamental than quantising the electromagnetic potential fourvector.
      – John Rennie
      3 hours ago












      Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago




      Why is that? Isn't $A^mu(x)$ a function of space time?
      – InertialObserver
      3 hours ago











      0














      Gravity is not equivalent to an accelerated frame. It's locally equivalent to an accelerated frame. That means that a point-like observed will never be able to tell whether he/she is in a gravitational field or in an accelerating spaceship. But an observer that has some characteristic size will experience tidal forces. Tidal forces are a result of a non zero curvature of space. On the other hand going to an accelerated frame does not curve spacetime because it's just a change of variables.



      The mathematical statement is that you can always find a change of coordinates which, at a given point, sets to zero the first derivatives of the metric. Namely you can make the Christoffel symbols $Gamma^mu_{nurho}$ vanish at a given point. On the other hand the second derivatives of the metric, which encode the curvature, cannot be set to zero.



      There is a nice exercise that demonstrates the difference between accelerating frames and curved spacetime. Suppose you have two particles following two parallel geodesics. In curved spacetime the geodesics will not stay parallel. This is discussed in the book Schutz - A first course in general relativity at the end of Section 6.5. I'll summarize the punch line but I encourage you to check the derivation there.



      Call $vec{xi}$ the vector that connects two geodesics $vec{V}$ and $vec{V}'$ initially parallel. In the book the following equation is proven
      $$
      nabla_Vnabla_V xi^alpha = R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}V^mu V^nu xi^beta,.
      $$

      where $nabla_V = V^mu nabla_mu$, $nabla$ being the covariant derivative and $R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}$ is the Riemann tensor, which measures the curvature. The equation above states that the variation of $vec{xi}$ along the geodesic is not zero but proportional to the curvature, thus showing that geodesics deviate from being parallel in curved space. This is a frame-independent effect and cannot be realized by going to an accelerated frame.



      An observer with a characteristic size of the order of $1/sqrt{R^mu_{phantom{a}nurhobeta}}$ would be able to notice this effect.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        0














        Gravity is not equivalent to an accelerated frame. It's locally equivalent to an accelerated frame. That means that a point-like observed will never be able to tell whether he/she is in a gravitational field or in an accelerating spaceship. But an observer that has some characteristic size will experience tidal forces. Tidal forces are a result of a non zero curvature of space. On the other hand going to an accelerated frame does not curve spacetime because it's just a change of variables.



        The mathematical statement is that you can always find a change of coordinates which, at a given point, sets to zero the first derivatives of the metric. Namely you can make the Christoffel symbols $Gamma^mu_{nurho}$ vanish at a given point. On the other hand the second derivatives of the metric, which encode the curvature, cannot be set to zero.



        There is a nice exercise that demonstrates the difference between accelerating frames and curved spacetime. Suppose you have two particles following two parallel geodesics. In curved spacetime the geodesics will not stay parallel. This is discussed in the book Schutz - A first course in general relativity at the end of Section 6.5. I'll summarize the punch line but I encourage you to check the derivation there.



        Call $vec{xi}$ the vector that connects two geodesics $vec{V}$ and $vec{V}'$ initially parallel. In the book the following equation is proven
        $$
        nabla_Vnabla_V xi^alpha = R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}V^mu V^nu xi^beta,.
        $$

        where $nabla_V = V^mu nabla_mu$, $nabla$ being the covariant derivative and $R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}$ is the Riemann tensor, which measures the curvature. The equation above states that the variation of $vec{xi}$ along the geodesic is not zero but proportional to the curvature, thus showing that geodesics deviate from being parallel in curved space. This is a frame-independent effect and cannot be realized by going to an accelerated frame.



        An observer with a characteristic size of the order of $1/sqrt{R^mu_{phantom{a}nurhobeta}}$ would be able to notice this effect.






        share|cite|improve this answer
























          0












          0








          0






          Gravity is not equivalent to an accelerated frame. It's locally equivalent to an accelerated frame. That means that a point-like observed will never be able to tell whether he/she is in a gravitational field or in an accelerating spaceship. But an observer that has some characteristic size will experience tidal forces. Tidal forces are a result of a non zero curvature of space. On the other hand going to an accelerated frame does not curve spacetime because it's just a change of variables.



          The mathematical statement is that you can always find a change of coordinates which, at a given point, sets to zero the first derivatives of the metric. Namely you can make the Christoffel symbols $Gamma^mu_{nurho}$ vanish at a given point. On the other hand the second derivatives of the metric, which encode the curvature, cannot be set to zero.



          There is a nice exercise that demonstrates the difference between accelerating frames and curved spacetime. Suppose you have two particles following two parallel geodesics. In curved spacetime the geodesics will not stay parallel. This is discussed in the book Schutz - A first course in general relativity at the end of Section 6.5. I'll summarize the punch line but I encourage you to check the derivation there.



          Call $vec{xi}$ the vector that connects two geodesics $vec{V}$ and $vec{V}'$ initially parallel. In the book the following equation is proven
          $$
          nabla_Vnabla_V xi^alpha = R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}V^mu V^nu xi^beta,.
          $$

          where $nabla_V = V^mu nabla_mu$, $nabla$ being the covariant derivative and $R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}$ is the Riemann tensor, which measures the curvature. The equation above states that the variation of $vec{xi}$ along the geodesic is not zero but proportional to the curvature, thus showing that geodesics deviate from being parallel in curved space. This is a frame-independent effect and cannot be realized by going to an accelerated frame.



          An observer with a characteristic size of the order of $1/sqrt{R^mu_{phantom{a}nurhobeta}}$ would be able to notice this effect.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Gravity is not equivalent to an accelerated frame. It's locally equivalent to an accelerated frame. That means that a point-like observed will never be able to tell whether he/she is in a gravitational field or in an accelerating spaceship. But an observer that has some characteristic size will experience tidal forces. Tidal forces are a result of a non zero curvature of space. On the other hand going to an accelerated frame does not curve spacetime because it's just a change of variables.



          The mathematical statement is that you can always find a change of coordinates which, at a given point, sets to zero the first derivatives of the metric. Namely you can make the Christoffel symbols $Gamma^mu_{nurho}$ vanish at a given point. On the other hand the second derivatives of the metric, which encode the curvature, cannot be set to zero.



          There is a nice exercise that demonstrates the difference between accelerating frames and curved spacetime. Suppose you have two particles following two parallel geodesics. In curved spacetime the geodesics will not stay parallel. This is discussed in the book Schutz - A first course in general relativity at the end of Section 6.5. I'll summarize the punch line but I encourage you to check the derivation there.



          Call $vec{xi}$ the vector that connects two geodesics $vec{V}$ and $vec{V}'$ initially parallel. In the book the following equation is proven
          $$
          nabla_Vnabla_V xi^alpha = R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}V^mu V^nu xi^beta,.
          $$

          where $nabla_V = V^mu nabla_mu$, $nabla$ being the covariant derivative and $R^alpha_{phantom{a}munubeta}$ is the Riemann tensor, which measures the curvature. The equation above states that the variation of $vec{xi}$ along the geodesic is not zero but proportional to the curvature, thus showing that geodesics deviate from being parallel in curved space. This is a frame-independent effect and cannot be realized by going to an accelerated frame.



          An observer with a characteristic size of the order of $1/sqrt{R^mu_{phantom{a}nurhobeta}}$ would be able to notice this effect.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 3 hours ago









          Mane.andrea

          46118




          46118























              0














              There is no difference between waves and particles. They are identical broad concepts including any possible configuration of matter or energy.



              So since gravity must be transmitted as something, whatever means through which it transmits can be called a wave or particle. Because all forces must unify, forces transmitted through quanta e.g. emag require that all other forces also be quantized.






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                0














                There is no difference between waves and particles. They are identical broad concepts including any possible configuration of matter or energy.



                So since gravity must be transmitted as something, whatever means through which it transmits can be called a wave or particle. Because all forces must unify, forces transmitted through quanta e.g. emag require that all other forces also be quantized.






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  0












                  0








                  0






                  There is no difference between waves and particles. They are identical broad concepts including any possible configuration of matter or energy.



                  So since gravity must be transmitted as something, whatever means through which it transmits can be called a wave or particle. Because all forces must unify, forces transmitted through quanta e.g. emag require that all other forces also be quantized.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  There is no difference between waves and particles. They are identical broad concepts including any possible configuration of matter or energy.



                  So since gravity must be transmitted as something, whatever means through which it transmits can be called a wave or particle. Because all forces must unify, forces transmitted through quanta e.g. emag require that all other forces also be quantized.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 3 hours ago









                  Liu

                  21




                  21






























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