The use of the spellings -zz- vs. -z-












4















Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?



My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.



But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:




Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.




("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)



Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?



If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?










share|improve this question









New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 1





    Welcome to Italian.SE!

    – Charo
    43 mins ago











  • Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

    – Denis Nardin
    18 mins ago













  • @DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

    – DaG
    11 mins ago
















4















Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?



My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.



But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:




Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.




("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)



Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?



If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?










share|improve this question









New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 1





    Welcome to Italian.SE!

    – Charo
    43 mins ago











  • Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

    – Denis Nardin
    18 mins ago













  • @DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

    – DaG
    11 mins ago














4












4








4








Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?



My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.



But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:




Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.




("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)



Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?



If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?










share|improve this question









New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?



My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.



But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:




Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.




("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)



Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?



If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?







pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants






share|improve this question









New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 mins ago







sumelic













New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 4 hours ago









sumelicsumelic

1415




1415




New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 1





    Welcome to Italian.SE!

    – Charo
    43 mins ago











  • Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

    – Denis Nardin
    18 mins ago













  • @DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

    – DaG
    11 mins ago














  • 1





    Welcome to Italian.SE!

    – Charo
    43 mins ago











  • Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

    – Denis Nardin
    18 mins ago













  • @DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

    – DaG
    11 mins ago








1




1





Welcome to Italian.SE!

– Charo
43 mins ago





Welcome to Italian.SE!

– Charo
43 mins ago













Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

– Denis Nardin
18 mins ago







Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.

– Denis Nardin
18 mins ago















@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

– DaG
11 mins ago





@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.

– DaG
11 mins ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















2














This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:




The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.




(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)



Maiden goes on to say that




In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).




But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.






share|improve this answer










New contributor




sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "524"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });






    sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fitalian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f10303%2fthe-use-of-the-spellings-zz-vs-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2














    This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:




    The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.




    (Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)



    Maiden goes on to say that




    In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).




    But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.

























      2














      This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:




      The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.




      (Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)



      Maiden goes on to say that




      In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).




      But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.























        2












        2








        2







        This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:




        The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.




        (Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)



        Maiden goes on to say that




        In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).




        But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:




        The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.




        (Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)



        Maiden goes on to say that




        In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).




        But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.







        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 3 hours ago





















        New contributor




        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 4 hours ago









        sumelicsumelic

        1415




        1415




        New contributor




        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






















            sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













            sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















            Thanks for contributing an answer to Italian Language Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fitalian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f10303%2fthe-use-of-the-spellings-zz-vs-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            404 Error Contact Form 7 ajax form submitting

            How to know if a Active Directory user can login interactively

            Refactoring coordinates for Minecraft Pi buildings written in Python