What is the theoretical maximal material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate?












2















I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:



enter image description here



I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.



By the way, the game above is not drawn by the insufficient material rule, as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.






theory draw







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  • 1





    I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

    – user1583209
    2 hours ago
















2















I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:



enter image description here



I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.



By the way, the game above is not drawn by the insufficient material rule, as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.






theory draw







share|improve this question




















  • 1





    I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

    – user1583209
    2 hours ago














2












2








2








I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:



enter image description here



I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.



By the way, the game above is not drawn by the insufficient material rule, as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.






theory draw







share|improve this question
















I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:



enter image description here



I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.



By the way, the game above is not drawn by the insufficient material rule, as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.






theory draw




theory draw






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago







Zuriel

















asked 3 hours ago









ZurielZuriel

503210




503210








  • 1





    I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

    – user1583209
    2 hours ago














  • 1





    I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

    – user1583209
    2 hours ago








1




1





I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

– user1583209
2 hours ago





I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).

– user1583209
2 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3














With white to move, the following position is a draw:



enter image description here



I think it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.






share|improve this answer
























  • Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Glorfindel
    2 hours ago











  • Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Zuriel
    2 hours ago













  • hahaha this could get awkward

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago



















1














This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:



7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1


You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.






share|improve this answer
























  • Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago








  • 1





    @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago











  • Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

    – Brandon_J
    1 hour ago











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes









3














With white to move, the following position is a draw:



enter image description here



I think it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.






share|improve this answer
























  • Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Glorfindel
    2 hours ago











  • Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Zuriel
    2 hours ago













  • hahaha this could get awkward

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago
















3














With white to move, the following position is a draw:



enter image description here



I think it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.






share|improve this answer
























  • Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Glorfindel
    2 hours ago











  • Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Zuriel
    2 hours ago













  • hahaha this could get awkward

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago














3












3








3







With white to move, the following position is a draw:



enter image description here



I think it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.






share|improve this answer













With white to move, the following position is a draw:



enter image description here



I think it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









Brandon_JBrandon_J

3026




3026













  • Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Glorfindel
    2 hours ago











  • Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Zuriel
    2 hours ago













  • hahaha this could get awkward

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago



















  • Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Glorfindel
    2 hours ago











  • Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

    – Zuriel
    2 hours ago













  • hahaha this could get awkward

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago

















Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

– Glorfindel
2 hours ago





Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

– Glorfindel
2 hours ago













Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago





Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago




2




2





I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

– Zuriel
2 hours ago







I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.

– Zuriel
2 hours ago















hahaha this could get awkward

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago





hahaha this could get awkward

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago




1




1





You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

– user1583209
1 hour ago





You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.

– user1583209
1 hour ago











1














This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:



7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1


You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.






share|improve this answer
























  • Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago








  • 1





    @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago











  • Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

    – Brandon_J
    1 hour ago
















1














This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:



7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1


You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.






share|improve this answer
























  • Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago








  • 1





    @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago











  • Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

    – Brandon_J
    1 hour ago














1












1








1







This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:



7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1


You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.






share|improve this answer













This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:



7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1


You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









GlorfindelGlorfindel

12.9k43560




12.9k43560













  • Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago








  • 1





    @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago











  • Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

    – Brandon_J
    1 hour ago



















  • Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

    – Brandon_J
    2 hours ago








  • 1





    @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

    – user1583209
    1 hour ago











  • Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

    – Brandon_J
    1 hour ago

















Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago







Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.

– Brandon_J
2 hours ago






1




1





@Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

– user1583209
1 hour ago





@Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.

– user1583209
1 hour ago













Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

– Brandon_J
1 hour ago





Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white

– Brandon_J
1 hour ago


















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