Does the union of all finite groups yield a complete knot invariant for prime knots?











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It is established in Whitten - Knot complements and groups together with the Gordon-Luecke theorem (that knot complements determine knot type) that the type of a prime knot is determined by the isomorphy type of its knot group.



In the book Charles Livingston - Knot Theory, the author uses surjective homomorphisms from knot groups into finite groups as knot invariants (i.e., two knot groups are nonisomorphic if one of them can be mapped onto a certain finite group and the other one can't). My question is:



If two prime knots are distinct, does that mean there is a finite group such that exactly one of them can be mapped surjectively into it?



or:



Do all finite groups combined yield (as described above) a complete knot invariant for prime knots?










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    It is established in Whitten - Knot complements and groups together with the Gordon-Luecke theorem (that knot complements determine knot type) that the type of a prime knot is determined by the isomorphy type of its knot group.



    In the book Charles Livingston - Knot Theory, the author uses surjective homomorphisms from knot groups into finite groups as knot invariants (i.e., two knot groups are nonisomorphic if one of them can be mapped onto a certain finite group and the other one can't). My question is:



    If two prime knots are distinct, does that mean there is a finite group such that exactly one of them can be mapped surjectively into it?



    or:



    Do all finite groups combined yield (as described above) a complete knot invariant for prime knots?










    share|cite|improve this question









    New contributor




    Simon1729 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite
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      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite
      2






      2





      It is established in Whitten - Knot complements and groups together with the Gordon-Luecke theorem (that knot complements determine knot type) that the type of a prime knot is determined by the isomorphy type of its knot group.



      In the book Charles Livingston - Knot Theory, the author uses surjective homomorphisms from knot groups into finite groups as knot invariants (i.e., two knot groups are nonisomorphic if one of them can be mapped onto a certain finite group and the other one can't). My question is:



      If two prime knots are distinct, does that mean there is a finite group such that exactly one of them can be mapped surjectively into it?



      or:



      Do all finite groups combined yield (as described above) a complete knot invariant for prime knots?










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      Simon1729 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      It is established in Whitten - Knot complements and groups together with the Gordon-Luecke theorem (that knot complements determine knot type) that the type of a prime knot is determined by the isomorphy type of its knot group.



      In the book Charles Livingston - Knot Theory, the author uses surjective homomorphisms from knot groups into finite groups as knot invariants (i.e., two knot groups are nonisomorphic if one of them can be mapped onto a certain finite group and the other one can't). My question is:



      If two prime knots are distinct, does that mean there is a finite group such that exactly one of them can be mapped surjectively into it?



      or:



      Do all finite groups combined yield (as described above) a complete knot invariant for prime knots?







      finite-groups knot-theory






      share|cite|improve this question









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      Simon1729 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      edited 2 hours ago









      YCor

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      27k380132






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      asked 4 hours ago









      Simon1729

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          Though it is not completely obvious, it turns out that if $G_1$ and $G_2$ are finitely generated groups that surject onto the same set of finite groups, then the profinite completions of $G_1$ and $G_2$ are isomorphic (you might expect that you need some kind of multiplicities here, but they are actually not needed!). So what you're asking is equivalent to asking if prime knots are determined by the profinite completions of their fundamental groups.



          I don't know the answer to this question, but there is a huge literature on these kinds of profinite rigidity questions for 3-manifold groups. For a recent survey of what is known, I recommend Alan Reid's ICM address, available here. See especially Section 4. By the way, the result I allude to in the first paragraph is Theorem 2.2 in this survey.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
            – Mike Miller
            2 hours ago











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          Though it is not completely obvious, it turns out that if $G_1$ and $G_2$ are finitely generated groups that surject onto the same set of finite groups, then the profinite completions of $G_1$ and $G_2$ are isomorphic (you might expect that you need some kind of multiplicities here, but they are actually not needed!). So what you're asking is equivalent to asking if prime knots are determined by the profinite completions of their fundamental groups.



          I don't know the answer to this question, but there is a huge literature on these kinds of profinite rigidity questions for 3-manifold groups. For a recent survey of what is known, I recommend Alan Reid's ICM address, available here. See especially Section 4. By the way, the result I allude to in the first paragraph is Theorem 2.2 in this survey.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
            – Mike Miller
            2 hours ago















          up vote
          6
          down vote













          Though it is not completely obvious, it turns out that if $G_1$ and $G_2$ are finitely generated groups that surject onto the same set of finite groups, then the profinite completions of $G_1$ and $G_2$ are isomorphic (you might expect that you need some kind of multiplicities here, but they are actually not needed!). So what you're asking is equivalent to asking if prime knots are determined by the profinite completions of their fundamental groups.



          I don't know the answer to this question, but there is a huge literature on these kinds of profinite rigidity questions for 3-manifold groups. For a recent survey of what is known, I recommend Alan Reid's ICM address, available here. See especially Section 4. By the way, the result I allude to in the first paragraph is Theorem 2.2 in this survey.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
            – Mike Miller
            2 hours ago













          up vote
          6
          down vote










          up vote
          6
          down vote









          Though it is not completely obvious, it turns out that if $G_1$ and $G_2$ are finitely generated groups that surject onto the same set of finite groups, then the profinite completions of $G_1$ and $G_2$ are isomorphic (you might expect that you need some kind of multiplicities here, but they are actually not needed!). So what you're asking is equivalent to asking if prime knots are determined by the profinite completions of their fundamental groups.



          I don't know the answer to this question, but there is a huge literature on these kinds of profinite rigidity questions for 3-manifold groups. For a recent survey of what is known, I recommend Alan Reid's ICM address, available here. See especially Section 4. By the way, the result I allude to in the first paragraph is Theorem 2.2 in this survey.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Though it is not completely obvious, it turns out that if $G_1$ and $G_2$ are finitely generated groups that surject onto the same set of finite groups, then the profinite completions of $G_1$ and $G_2$ are isomorphic (you might expect that you need some kind of multiplicities here, but they are actually not needed!). So what you're asking is equivalent to asking if prime knots are determined by the profinite completions of their fundamental groups.



          I don't know the answer to this question, but there is a huge literature on these kinds of profinite rigidity questions for 3-manifold groups. For a recent survey of what is known, I recommend Alan Reid's ICM address, available here. See especially Section 4. By the way, the result I allude to in the first paragraph is Theorem 2.2 in this survey.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 3 hours ago









          Andy Putman

          31k5132211




          31k5132211












          • That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
            – Mike Miller
            2 hours ago


















          • That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
            – Mike Miller
            2 hours ago
















          That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
          – Mike Miller
          2 hours ago




          That's a great summary! In particular, I think this question is still wide open, though maybe one needs to restrict to hyperbolic or torus knots: the comments about non-trivial JSJ decomposition indicate that perhaps the question is false for satellite knots.
          – Mike Miller
          2 hours ago










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